It’s funny, but the few places in the city that I experience the worst discrimination, are the places where I go to have my hearing loss treated. Audiologists, and ENT doctors.
Normal businesses and doctor’s offices, when I speak to the doctor or the receptionist, they listen to me and respond. Sometimes they don’t quite know how to speak to me so that I’ll understand, but with a little bit of fumbling around and maybe discovering we need a notebook to communicate… Generally after about 5 minutes, we’re up and running with a system that works for us.
Then I go to the audiologist, and instead of that initial fumbling around to discover what works? I experience something far worse. Either the audiologist, building workers, and receptionists speak to whomever is accompanying me to my appointment, or they treat me as if I’m an elderly person- slightly pixelated. I always feel as if I’m a cat going to the vet’s instead of a human being going for treatment. I’m subjected to the bare minimum amount of communication and direction, and when I ask questions, I’m often given overly simplistic answers- or my questions, concerns, and suggestions are dismissed. Almost as if I were a schizophrenic babbling about voices that only I could hear.? But I’m not. I’m talking about my hearing loss, my? needs, the limitations of the devices that they are adjusting- and I’m suggesting things that I think could circumvent those limitations.
Instead of listening, they sort of zone out. And the Deaf workers there? They have their own Deaf agenda, and it has no room for anyone who circumnavigates the world in a way that doesn’t fit in with the Deaf way of doing things.
It’s sort of ironic that the one place in the city where I’m constantly reminded of my status as a second-class disabled person, is the one place in the city where I’m least expecting to encounter that.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:53 am
2nd class disabled person?? now theres a contradictory statment iv ever heard!! sara, you , we, are as 1st class as everybody else just certain things work differently!! id doesnt make us less human!!
I, at the moment am in an ‘in the middle state’ i cant sign that great or fast, and also i can hear!! so my communication is completely lost in some cases!! though i can never say i have ever come accross discriminatory actions as you have, every one is usually excellent about it!! bar one or two tutors in college who go out of their way to over pronounce words and i cant lipread them at all :p
on the other hand i do agree with the 2nd class treatment!! taking my recient appointment into consideration, and you would thing doctors and specialists of all people would know better!!
December 18th, 2005 at 9:55 am
As for the deaf agenda..that happens because they usually live in their own world…a “bubble” if you will. Maybe they’re just ‘zombies’ for paralyzing reasons or perhaps untrained in the matter of dealing with other deaf patients?
December 19th, 2005 at 4:43 am
Yes I very much agree with Sara E. In fact my old audiology and ENT dept in Manchester, UK, was the worst for this.
The ENT used to annoy me because not only did they have no visual patient-calling system, but the three nurses who called people’s names were all crap. My father was regularly asked by confused looking deaf people if he could listen out for $name if it was called. My dad did try asking them to be a) more audible, and b) if they could get a visual system with numbers or something which people could see.
In Nov 2005 this was just the same with added stupid queue to book-in system which was even more discriminatory as they didn’t use the number thing properly and mumbled at me inaudibly. I walked away half way through my ‘booking in’ last time cos I didn’t know the woman needed to ask me more stupid questions. *grrr*.
The reason I stick with Manchester’s ENT is because my consultant is amazing. He has wonderful deaf awareness and always speaks clearly carefully and audibly to me without being patronising or make me feel stupid. He repeats himself or picks up when I have misparsed something and if he thinks my hearing aid is dying he’ll dig me one out of his sekrit stash (which the audiologists hate)…
Shame I can’t say the same for his current minions, one of whom not only turned away from me while talking to me, but asked me “Have you ever had a hearing test before”. I didn’t know this until my partner told me after the appointment. He should have known I had previous audiometry because my hearing loss is congenital, I had a BAHA implanted 12 years ago which requires extensive testing and he had just poked my BAHA abutment for no good reason other than nosiness. He’s lucky I didn’t hear him because I would have given him a sarcastic answer which would have antagonised him more than asking basic questions did.
The audiology department manages to be worse than the ENT one despite being at least vaguely audible about calling people’s names. The chief audiologist has been known to take my hearing aid to fiddle with it, turn her back to me and then start chatting away at me. My friend Julia, who accompanied me to that appointment was suitably scathing about this complete lack of awareness only to me met with a non-repentant “Oh I always do that, I forget that deaf people can’t hear me - especially Natalya cos she doesn’t sound deaf…” I spend my whole life with people ‘forgetting’ that I am deaf because I don’t /sound/ deaf. This gets onto my main rant with the ‘oralist one true way’ brigade. No matter how good a deaf person’s speech is, they are still deaf…
I always used to like it when my dad or Julia accompanied me to audiology/ENT because they didn’t hesitate to be sarcastic at any idiot who talked to them instead of me. They will refuse to answer for me, and insist that the ENT/audiologist speaks to me themselves… I now have my partner kim who is much quieter, but suitably sarcastic when audiologists tell me 15dB is insignificant.
I have just transferred my audiology to Sheffield where I now live. Their audiology and hearing services depts seem to be a lot better than manchester in terms of attitude and awareness. The sheffield audiologist who deals with my aids not only speaks carefully, but I think she can sign as well. She was certainly cueing some of her speech last time I went in with a broken aid, she saw my kim and I signing in the waiting room.
When I did two weeks work experience at Manchester’s audiology 10 years ago I found they got complacent about people. The lack of tolerance and compassion for old people and their issues, and the patronising attitude /some/ of the audiologists had towards deaf people really shocked me. One or two people really amazed me with their understanding and care, but the rest made me realise how they really see us.
My mum is training to be a teacher of the deaf and I’ve been helping her with her essays *headdesk*. The literature that she has access to is fascinating. It is very interesting to see the people who patronise deaf people, and the people who see a bigger picture and treat us like individuals with individual needs.
December 19th, 2005 at 10:34 am
hmmm - this is all pretty interesting. I have to admit - going to the ENT is not a favorable experience for me, similar reasons. I find that most people in the medical profession are completely stumped when it comes to me, because I’m not your typical cranky 80 yr old getting his first pair of aids, so they’re not quite sure how to talk to me. I know for a fact that they definitely “talk-down” to the seniors, but they know they can’t pull that sh*t with a 25 yr old professional. It may be almost the year 2006, but I don’t think our general public has quite separated the stereotype of “deaf and dumb.” It’s a shame.
On a related subject (kind of a taboo topic, please forgive me) - I’ve had a lot of problems with my regular doctor office concerning communicating. I live near Detroit, and we have an enormous amount of foreign doctors, due to good medical schools such as U of M and Wayne State University. I think it’s fantastic to have a diverse community of successful doctors, they are a benefit to the States - but personally for me, they are a nightmare:
The average Dr. Jane or Joe, I can understand perfectly well in a quiet room, face to face. But my medical office now consists of all foreign doctors and I cannot understand their accents even if my life depended on it (er, guess it kind of does, being that we’re talking about my health here). Next time I will bring a notepad, but I feel that having a doctor write notes with you is detrimental because is he really going to write every little piece of info that he would’ve said aloud otherwise? Or is he just going to gloss over the details so he can rush onto his next patient? And let’s not forget, doctors have the WORST handwriting skills (anyone look at their prescriptions lately?) Anyone else have this uncomfortable complaint?
December 21st, 2005 at 12:08 pm
I have to agree with the people fprgetting ur deaf, Im in the same boat, my speack is just fine, because im carefull to pronounce well, and only on some occasions ill slur words! but it doesnt negate the face that im deaf!! :p and i get a little embarressed to remind people of the fact!
January 4th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
So I was researching deafness coz I am applying for a post in Westminster diocese 9k for 17.5 hours and you think get treated as second class. I have been reading some of the posts and you can be hilarious. It reminded me of being in a pub once watching a group signing and realising I was missing out on a real party. I am sure I’ll piss people off for speaking too soon. It’s one of the things that attracts me to the post of deaf liturgy. But part of that whole patronising ignoring contempt for the person in front of me is because they are doctors or health care professionals that is they wanted to be doctors but were too stupid to pass the exams. I had a heart attack five years ago. Some of the younger dudes were really helpful comforting, the nurses in the ICU were the most wonderful. I was grateful on the whole but in my experience there were some who didn’t tell me stuff because they were arrogant and patronising and it was none of my concern or on other occasions they went through all the possible pitfalls which seemed to end in death when all i wanted to know was if you were in my position doc with all your training and experience which option would you choose for yourself. Depends on the person. It’s not all of it. Hadn’t realised how hilarious the deaf community could be.
January 4th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
well welcome aboard for researching purposes and the like, and ur more than welcome to ur opinion! but being deaf or hard of hearing does not make us any different to anybody else!
January 4th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
hey there lette wow quick response i guess what i meant so say was the opposite also the phrase I am human being I am like every other human being, I am like some human beings, I am like no other human being. Talking about humanity is like talking about God whatever you say is a lie. Part of the humour and I havent read all the posts seems to come from the patience shown. The frustration at getting the phones to work. You don’t seem to lose your temper as much as I would not that it ever helped me when dealing with beaurocracies.
Interesting question though does being deaf make a group distinct from any other group. There seems to be a variety of opinions on that one. If there were any deaf people who practised an organised religion it would be nice to hear their experiences. I don’t research in a clinical way I am not a researcher in that sense. I am just a bit lost. I found a job opportunity that looked ok for me but it struck me that the principles of a deaf liturgy will throw out a challenge to the wider church. I also realised it doesn’t really interest anyone else I have met. But the ideas really set me on fire. And it’s been a long time since anything has really inspired me.
It is interesting whether deafness is a sixth category, whether it’s a disability or whether it’s like being black in country governed by rules of apartheid. It seems to make sense that part of this is choice and intrapsychic. I like the subjective introduction that this is a community of individuals each has their own view of what it means to be deaf. But part of it is just how the world is for now, more concrete. That part isn’t just opinion. But it is still possible to change those tings too. I ramble on.
If i cause offence let me know and certainly send feedback. I am not sure if ill get shortlisted for the job but I am down for a course in BSL and the ideas a deaf liturgy throws up for me well that sort of thing fascinates me still. It’s generous to give feedback and I am really quite greedy to learn.
January 4th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
ok wow cool, i am interested now
i love new descussions, no offence ever taken on my part anyway, im too lazy!
as for a deaf liturgy, could u tell me what it entails, i have no idea what it is? but as for religion, I am a born,, tho not practicing catholic, i am extreamly openminded so i cant settle on a religon, tho i do believe in a greater power ( god) to some people! but i could ramble forever on my beliefs!
please tell me more on what the job u are applying for is all about and id be only too glad to give feedback
lette
January 4th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Sure it’s assistant to the Director Deaf Services at Westminster Diocese in London, they have a web site I find it by google searching Westminster Diocese.
Deaf liturgy is a bit complex. For now what I think happens is they have priests who add sign language, in London that is British Sign Language but it isn’t officially recognised by the State as yet there is a whole EC political thing there too. I suppose it’s a form of commenting to help people understand what is going on. However if the Church were to recognise BSL as a vernacular language for example like Welsh then that would not be sufficient. This is where the theologians get into a muddle. Partly because of the simplicity of BSL as compared with other languages that have developed theological jargon. I don’t really want to go off on one. I suppose the challenge which you would think would be doable is if religion is about love tolerance respect is there no simple way we can find a way of public worship which can express that. In the past it hasn’t proved so easy. Many heresies developed from liturgy. So problems arise from how would you translate the Creed. American Liturgists have begun tackling ASL as a vernacular, so long as it isn’t brought for approval it can work in practice but it’s never gonna work in theory it would seem. What also sets people off at a basic level is that it is silent communication. Something about the nature of language. They don’t mind so much translating Latin into other spoken languages and having alongside the spoken words another symbolic language of gestures and body movements. However theologians seem to get really upset that BSL or ASL are not aural or is it audial languages. It then challenges them as to how the liturgy is done. One model now out of fashion is that of God being in Heaven we say specific words and do specific deeds and he then zaps down the grace as it were, ex opere operato. A more modern model is that God works through the cultural symbols more transparently. I suppose the problem would lie in a perceived attack on the ministry of the priest. If someone signs for the priest and the sacrament is effected through the symbols themselves, are they doing his job. As a fellow recovering catholic you know how upset they get if women are seen to be more visibly active.
On the more spiritual/mystic side a silent liturgy seems more authentic as to how God appears to be in the world. Visible in signs, felt in love, but no chatter. It would be different I think better. I was surprised how deafness had been treated in the past. Augustine I was told questioned whether the deaf could be converted if they could not hear the Word. It’s not as simplistic as it sounds. It was only very recently that the deaf were not excluded from the priesthood. And more recently that those born deaf were offered a particular catechism or any sign help with services. My parents went to services in Latin including all readings. They didn’t know what was going on. It was the norm for services worldwide in the Church from the 16th century.
I feel there is something quite prophetic about a liturgy designed around BSL. It would not be a signing of the Roman Rite but a representation of it for a people who communicate primarily in BSL. It’s sort of like looking at the idea of why do we use bread and wine to remember Love. Were these the ordinary food and drink of a locality, should we use the ordinary food and drink of a locality or are they fixed in a particular time and place. In the far east where there is no indigenous wine production they become symbols of the conquering invader the wine has to be imported.
It struck me as amazing stuff could happen with these services until someone shuts them down. The job entails liaising with liturgy committees, greeting/reception duties at the centre, some admin web design, sacramental training. it’s not a high level job but the concept fascinates me. It must be possible to simplify the worship gettting rid of the accretions. There is the other problem.
From the records Jesus and the prophets seemed to want to open the ears of the deaf. At some point in the 8th century Xtians realised they could not open the ears of the deaf so we developed a theology of suffering. I know some deaf people argue that they are not disabled just different, in the way that short people aren’t disabled, or those who don’t have cat walk model looks or weight aren’t disabled. I guess if there were a button where deafness could be switched on or off if there were more choice, it might convince me more but I am not dismissing that either. The problem remains that so much of the religion is bound in the symbol of the Word. Aside from the reality of resignation to a world without everyday miracles. I suppose it has something to do with Semiology, words need not be audial. I dunno the ideas are too big for me to hold all together without becoming lost in them. I am starting a course in BSL for liturgy in a couple of weeks and if i get the job a crash course in BSL at the City Lit.
It’s been a long time since I felt called to do something. I’ll see where this goes. I guess people don’t seem to realise how challenging a deaf liturgy would be to the rest of the Church in a way that would make all the other vernacular liturgies challenging as they have been seem just window dressing. it is at the core of what we mean by a listening church. When all that talk is done I want to know my Love in the Still Small Voice and be surprised again, what are you doing there Lord? Just hope he isn’t too mad with me that’s all.
January 5th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Desie- that’s a lot to think about. Wow. Fascinating! Thanks for taking the time to post all of that information. Would you be interested in joining the somewhatsilent group and posting about your experiences? You’re not deaf, but your studies and potential job are very interesting, and very relevant.
January 5th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
wow, ok, theres a lot to take in! very interesting tho! could they not just give out flyers and let us read it? I can see whats needed tho, Isl (irish sign lingo) is the same, as in its not recognised as a proper dialct, personally i think the world over should have one recognised sign dialect, I know many would dissagree, but i really think it would make things a whole lot easier!
best of luck with it, and please let me know how ur signing classes go, as Im learning too!! so dont be a stranger here, and keep asking questions!! It makes the world go round dont ya know 
as for sign, I understand than sign doesnt have the same vocabulary stretchings as the spoken language has, but I could show you some interpreters who could sign anything for you!
but yeah! Interesting job that, do u think learning sign is gonna benifit you quickly?? ull have to use it everyday for about 2 years consistantly befor you get anyway good!!
Im sure the others here will have more help for you, personally I think this is very interesting, but also very new to me and i dont think my feedback will help very much, my deafness is new to me also, but I would love to ‘hear’ more on this matter as you and it evolves ( pardon the pun
January 5th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Ah Sara, I did to try to sign up to join but it said wait for a password that did not come and now the job application deadline is Monday 9th and I have still to talk to a human at Vaughan House. if I get the post i’d love to post here for feedback. Might make sense to wait a few days. But ill go on the short course anyway. One reason I may not get shortlisted is that I have no signing skills I’ve been learning the letters and a few signs but I don’t think its worth going on courses if i dont get the post because I wont get the practice. As you say the usual way to learn signing is over two years two twenty week courses. But without practice there would be no point trying crash courses offered at the City Lit.
I also have a few years in Counselling. One selling point I suggested was my weakness at signing gave God some space. It would force me to really listen more and talk less. The Deaf Service also has a deaf blind priest when he lost his sight as well he became an aromatherapist. I don’t wish to be insensitive but the sign value of a deaf blind priest is a powerful statement. The Service expects the candidate to learn deaf blind communication also. But the symbol of the man who saw God and walks with men no more. Even the non-deaf know that some things can be said better without words. I hope I am not being insensitive. I have never got far in the brotherhoods, one elderly brother on leaving one order gave me a book on Braille. I assumed then that he meant there were some things we learn that we should hope and pray never to be given the opportunity to use. But he may have meant nothng by it.
And lette I was going to explain why they wouldn’t want to hand out a leaflet and why it isn’t really about more accurate signing but i got lost in examples and history and had to delete several paragraphs. If the Church liturgy is real then the love that people show when they gather together, share their experiences of life and love, tell their stories, this love becomes flesh and blood. Once there was only one language in which this was done it was Latin. Sort of like top down government. The current way is bottom up. How the story is shared matters. It isn’t really about getting a signer to understand what is meant by the filioque clause, or what begotten not made means in Trinitarian Monotheism.
We celebrate a story about Love and Love summed up in a last supper among friends. It’s about promise and hope, betrayal and horrific darkness, death and the possibility of resurrrection. It is far more important for theologians to try to understand how deaf sign language expresses this story among those who are deaf. Because we worship a God of the Living not of the dead. If God does not live in the lives of God’s followers then God does not live. The challenge lies whenever God truly speaks among us we tend to become selective about what parts of the message we want to hear. The irish are very proud of their language because for seven hundred years they were not allowed to speak it. The problem now is few want to claim it back. There is something about deciding to claim back a prophetic voice that is at the heart of liturgy. And in practical politics so long as no one tries to get official recognition for the liturgy before the time is right, then God can be given another voice. But as you can see I talk too much I hope they let me have the post I won’t be able to talk very much for the first few years. Best way to learn to listen perhaps.
January 7th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
Desi- I tried sending you an email with your password, but the email address you entered into the system seems to be bouncing emails back? Are you sure you signed up with the right one? Maybe a typo or something? =]
January 7th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
how embarrassing yes you are right. its yahoo.co.uk not yahoo.com anyway deadline is monday they got the application and the deaf liturgy signing thing starts Tuesday ill let you know how i get on
October 18th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Doctors, universities and even interpreters and those that really have no experience of actual hearing impariments and the daily stresses, constant discrimination, the way we try so hard to lipread and overcome our “disability” its all ABOUT MONEY.. u take someone who is fully deaf and mute and given an interpreter all their life and when they hit the real world they are lost.. u take someoen who lived without one tried to live in a hearing world and face the real world they dont go a day without explaing to someone.. u shock people everywhre u go and then the ADA law is sadly not even enforced anywhere because for one.. people dont understand it truly…not enough workers .. too many disabled.. not enough people to stick together because o f what JEALOUSY and greed…. and again MONEY … if you like to lipread and know some sign but try to talk your best u arent considred Deaf enough for things… cant hear on the phone well say u can hear but cant undrestand a word and can cry for help if u need it oh uare u considered deaf no cuz people say oh theres people worse than u… try being stck in the middle for once !! its worse !! u cant get help when u need it cuz instead of all deaf and hard of hearing coming together as ONE people are isolated and faced with thhir own problems and people are even labeled even more in a Deaf community… Ive been HOH since age one ive seen generations go by and i fear for teh generations to come… genetic deafness can make you really wonder a lot of things.. Its sad if u ask me .. all of it … i think the worst is ho w the worst is people just say oh its better than it used to be.. but really arent educated or dont even know how ti used to be.. take someone who was raised knowing generations of deaf people went thru discrimination and take what we go thru now even with the laws in effect and how its till so divided… its like making me wonder.. whats wrong with EVERYONE ??? people of different classes such as blacks and spanish group together and even if they are rich poor whatever they come together as ONE to help each other and accomplish things.. why doesnt the deaf and hard of hearing do the same ?????? its fear … jealousy and greed again… and sad part of it all is theres sooo many of us that know this .. and how many of u been depressed? stressed,, had job issues.. labeled… wanted hearing friends wanted deaf friedns got confused by it all ? yet when we are alone and want to just go to the store or to work we all go thru things… then we face people above us who maybe make more money and think they are better yet they dont want to do anything to help the rest of us .. its all so sad … again if u ask me its about MONEY and greed… i feel until people join together and really work together and put away selfish needs then maybe the world can be fair.. a
u go to a doctors office and say oh i got a headache that wont go away from dealign with this and that and this and that and using relays and getting hung up on and my hands hurt from typing and my eyes hurt from tryin to HEAR my ears hurt from hearing things that im not sure what i hear its just all noise… oh i face rude people all the time then if i try to stay cool calm relaxed and professional oh im fien im not disabled… truuth is we have a handicap … we have a major function of life that has been taken away… the ability to HEAR we cant turn on a radio and understand we must read.. we must read read read read … why
October 20th, 2007 at 6:16 am
WOW, I completely agree.Trace, Im the same as I have explained before, Im neither completely deaf of completely hearing, im severely deaf, thats the title, and yet when I answer someone who asks me a question there like, WTF?? I thought you were deaf!! Deaf awarness is the problem, or the lack thereof! I lipread, and I sign only a tiny bit, my Lipreading is my main means of communication, my speach and voice sounds like that of a hearing person….but Im not! I cant hear a lot of things, and with that EVERY DAYYYY without fail I find myself like a broken record explaining, that I understand what you say and I can talk but I cant HEAR you!! People cans seem to understand that! and the days your tired and cant concentrate on lipreading and they ask you questions and you cant answer them, their like, I thought you said you could understand me and today you cant?? People actually think I make it up! But I dont, I suffer, and Sometimes its enough to make you want to lock yourself away, but you cant because life goes on and tough shit!
Your right, if we all cant learn to understand that deaf is deaf HOH is HOH and yes we actually can in a way all be lumped in together as a group and get on with it, but no…I see it so much that Profoundly deaf people dont want to knw if you can speak, that means you can hear and your not the same!!… Actually I believe, and this is a horrible thing to say but its true: ‘What you never had you never miss’
But I had hearing, and now I dont and I have had to adjust and its a much harder thing and it messes you up, and the face that people dont want to understand is so upsetting.
Im in the middle of all this, I have no rock to call my own, no doctor, no interpreter, no one, can understand unless they have had this proplem, and so few do… Iv spoken to you lot about it, but in real life iv only ever met, HOH people or profoundly deaf people, no one like me in the middle. I have no one to truely Understand…I have people to talk to about it, Keith is the best in the world, but sometimes I feel so isolated and even though it seems like im doing so well and understand everything, the truth is I cant, and sometimes I just want to be on my own. Most days it doesnt bother me, but other days it does, and theres nothing I can do about that! Its up to other people to understand, not me, im the one who has to live with it already, why should I have to to change any more, iv enough adjustments to make!.